“That’s really none of his fucking business,” I responded. “Its not like he works for a bank and we’re going for a loan.”
“But if we’re serious business builders then he says we have to show him a budget,” Ambot argued. Yep that was total Amway speak and for the life of me I couldn’t figure out why the hell the Platinum wanted to see our budget other than Ambot’s loose explanation that the Platinum wanted to help us create a budget that we could follow and help us get financially on track. Let’s see - is he a financial planner? I was pretty sure he has a government job that’s not finance related? But then I forget that not minding their own business is a prerequisite for being a sack of shit Platinum.
I had created a budget sometime during the past couple of years after reading a book written by a financial advisor and one of the exercises was to create a budget. Then I started reading books by another financial advisor who didn’t recommend creating budgets because over 90% of people don’t follow them anyway which is totally true in our case. The budget I had saved on the computer was good enough for me without updating any changes and I printed it out for Ambot.
The Platinum was impressed and said we were in much better shape than most of his downline. Well there’s a reason for that particularly because other than our mortgage we had no debt. We owned our cars and had investments and savings. This is just part of life experience. People in their 20’s who are starting out still have to save up a down payment to buy their first house and they probably took out a loan to buy a car. And probably have credit card debt.
So the fucker wants to see our budget to guide us financially on track when we’re in better financial shape than him?
In hindsight I know the Platinum wanted to see our budget to see how much wiggle room we had to buy Amway products and invest in tools when he saw the difference between our income and expenses. The real reason he was impressed was that we had no debt on our credit cards with about 100K available. That’s a lot of Amway products we can charge not to mention we had nothing holding us back from attending out of state functions. “Just charge it!” We have equity in our house so again the Platinum must have seen $$$ signs that we could get a line of credit against that equity if we needed. Oh and he must have loved that we had a decent 401k available that we could cash in to donate to the cult.
I just looked at the revised budget I did after the Platinum meeting so he must have given me some Amway stuff to add in. Under PV there is $300 budgeted each month. (If you read my previous post you’ll see that Ambot purchased between $950 and $1050 each month for PV. What did I say about not following a budget????) This is under household where I have things like groceries, utilities, etc. Under business expenses are 3 items (HA!): web page $50 (that would have actually been the WWDB Premier membership), Communikate $34, and samples $60, totalling $144/month in business expenses. Plus $300 personal shopping for PV = $444. That’s approximately what I said in my Save First, Spend Later blog on a lowball monthly Amway investment. Add in functions and budget $700/month minimum. A little more than what the sack of shit had us put on the budget.
The budget was never referred to ever again. Kind of like the name list. Just produce one to show the Platinum that you have one and no need to bring it up again.
But did the Platinum give us any concrete advice on how much money to put into the Amway budget. During the first few months when he was “fired up” Ambot threw away close to $2000/month on various things having to do with Amway - buying products, buying tools, entertaining upline, etc. After he hit the limit on his credit card the spending was reduced to around $500/month.
So much for the budget. If I was actually keeping one I’d have to add in a new column for paying back credit card debt thanks to Amway.
Exactly. The reason your Platinum didn't need to see your budget again was because he knew you didn't have any credit card debt, so he knew he could bleed you via the Amway Tool Scam for a VERY long time and for a LOT of money.
ReplyDeleteNot only the tool scam but they always phoned Ambot at the end of the month and hounded him to buy more products so someone upline could meet their goals which promptly was put on his credit card. What about my goal of staying debt free? Selfish greedy bastards didn't care about that as long as they made money off us.
ReplyDeleteSo you and ambot would have been better off going into this scam in debt. Guess i was lucky to be a broke student,in huge student loans,not allowed credit cards,bad credit etc during my amway days. Nice to tell your upline to screw off cause you have no money.
ReplyDeleteYes, the idea is to get the pin, at any cost. This allows them to continue to wear the pin and the associated lifestyle (thanks to the Amway Tool Scam) long after their volume has fallen far below the pin level.
ReplyDeleteColin there were a lot of people in our line who were already in debt, drove cars that were always breaking down, etc and still were coerced into buying more. That's one of the things that makes a good cult leader. Using the power or persuasion to make a person do things they might not normally do.
ReplyDeleteTex I think our Platinum had been at that level for at least 10 years. I know we have a better life than they do though he'd disagree because that's what an arrogant sack of shit would do - lie and pretend that life is great at their pin level.
The budgeting and checking upline has a purpose, just like getting out of debt. They want to be sure that you have enough income to buy your PV and tools.
ReplyDeleteI view the scenario more as a con job than a cult.
ReplyDeleteYour Platinum probably wasn't a currently qualifying Platinum, especially if he had been a Platinum for 10 years and was not a Founders Platinum, which means he held Platinum volume for 12 months, not just 6. Being a Founders pin doesn't guarantee they qualify, if they aren't a Founders within a year or two, there is a MUCH greater chance they went backwards. No wonder they were pounding on you for end of month orders - they probably needed the money to pay their own bills!
Joe, that's what I figured out after the fact except I don't think they cared so much about the income, just that the difference between that and the monthly bills was enough to plug into their cult. Or failing that enough credit on standby.
ReplyDeleteTex they're a cult as far as I'm concerned but they're also scammers. So its both. During our time the Platinum and his wife were Q12 I think the term is, whatever is up a bit higher than Platinum. I'm sure you'll let me know what the right term is. I'm guessing 12 months Platinum? They went down to Las Vegas for whatever the Platinum event is. They may have been in and out of Platinum qualification for many years? They also got a $20,000 check. I never saw the actual check just a photocopy so for all I know they could have returned $20,000 worth of products for a refund.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with the cult term is it makes you look like a kook. That's okay with me.
ReplyDeleteAre you aware Amway views "once a pin, always a pin?" This means they may have been Q12 (which is basically the same as a Founders pin, although Amway separately views current volume with the Q12 designator. I know, it's confusing. The idea is to cause so much confusion you give up trying to figure out what their current volume is. The $20k check was probably for the qualification, but I believe it is a one time only reward.
Tex you might think its kooky to refer to Amway IBO’s as a cult, but what else do you call being inside a dangerous mind-control environment? If our group wasn’t a cult then they sure used cult tactics to manipulate people into doing things they otherwise would never do - such as run up the credit card bill after previously being debt free - in pursuit of an elusive dream. Have you not noticed that the tapes/CD’s say the same thing over and over - another kind of cult tactic mind control. How about isolating the IBO’s from their family and friends who may try to reason with them that Amway is a bad business opportunity? Peer pressure from other IBO’s particulary to attend out of state functions, late night meetings, and emotional abuse in the form of verbal lashings. Some people might call it kooky, others call it a cult. We all call them as we see them.
ReplyDeleteYou even said causing confusion. Another cult tactic.
Yeah I remember hearing somewhere that the $20K bonus was a one time thing but Ambot was under the impression is was every year that they qualify and I’m sure I heard either the Platinum or higher say that too, but I only vaguely recall that.
I call it RICO/conspiracy fraud, lying, bait-and-switch, misrepresentation, etc. It's no more "mind control" than a sports fan painting his body in the team colors and screaming in the stands. People who excel in most fields could be described as "too dedicated," as I described in the sports film review comment a few threads ago, but that doesn't make them a cult. Do you realize a sports coach tells his players the same thing over and over, and keeps them away from their families during training camp?
ReplyDeleteThe key difference with Amway is the underlying LIE, hence the term LCK (Lying Cowardly "Kingpin"), because they LIE about the major source of profit, they are too COWARDLY to admit it, and run around like mafia "KINGPIN" bosses. But NONE of the above makes them a "cult." You merely damage your own reputation when you sling the "cult" words around. Remember, cults aren't illegal. The words I used above are.
Frankly, the $20k bonus isn't that important of an issue for me to investigate further. I'm sure ibofb is surfing your site, he would be glad to show his intelligence and get you an answer.
There's enough books and articles that call Amway a cult and from what I've read I can say that's exactly what happened to us so I call it as I see it. I don't see how any of the words you use are illegal.
ReplyDeleteIBOFB doesn't spend much time here. He doesn't have anything to say about my former upline or what I endured. He's much too busy commenting on sites where he can give his opinion on Amway policy or how Amway (or their lawyers) comes out the real winner every time they settle lawsuits rather than listening to rants about former uplines. He finds my blog too boring for his intelligence.
You don't see how these words are illegal?
ReplyDeleteRICO/conspiracy fraud, lying, bait-and-switch, misrepresentation?
Are you high? This behavior is the basis for the $155 million proposed settlement in the Pokorny vs. Amway case. Do you think Amway settled because they like the clothes the opposing attorneys wear?
I said I didn't see you using those words was illegal. Its not against the law to say the truth. I'm not a knowledgeable scholar in Amway lawsuits. Although I've read over some usually due to a link in another article and I know the Pokorny one was the latest settlement I'm not all that familiar with them and I don't know the names all the parties who've ever sued Amway. They all seem to sue for more or less the same reasons, namely what you already said above, and its logical to guess the plaintiff's lawyers have done their research and know they're going to win or else they wouldn't bother taking the case. Then the Amway lawyers spend a couple of years arguing why the case or sections of it you should be dropped because they're doing their job they're paid to do too. And then there's a settlement. Now there'll be people who will argue that what I just said is not how it goes, but to someone who's only loosely looked at a few lawsuits they all follow the same pattern to me. So I expect you will be richer in a couple of years too! Who knows if Amway liked the clothes the other attorneys wore! Maybe. Any excuse for why they settled works!
ReplyDeleteWhether Amway is a cult or not is debatable. There is no question that many groups display some cult like tactics and teachings. I think the only things that you can use in their defense is that you can leave on your own free will. Aside from that, most groups have behavior that scream cult, such as the leader worship, isolation from family and friends (labeled "negative") and devotion to a cause.
ReplyDelete